I’m going to go out on a limb here (hah) and say that this is going to be very, very controversial…oh well! 
There are several things that I want to say, but the first is this. Not all Catholics are non-Christians. This post is simply things that I believe are wrong with the Catholic Church in general. Okay, here we go.
The first thing is the pope. There is no need for a pope, seriously. Catholics (and most people in general) treat the pope as if he is some special. His very title (your holiness) treats him with an unBiblical air. The Bible is very clear. No one is righteous. Even the pope. To claim otherwise is blasphemy, period. No one is holy except God. End of discussion.
The next thing is the whole “you can earn your salvation” junk. That, also, is unBiblical. This is also very clear. Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.” Okay. End of discussion. Well, not really. There is also Purgatory. This is pretty much the same thing. Once you die, you go to Purgatory, where you work off your sins. Obviously, this is also unBiblical, for the same reasons (not even to mention that Purgatory isn’t ever mention in the Bible).
Something else (this is the one that kills me the most, figuratively speaking) is that Catholics pray to Mary (and the other saints). First of all this is absolutely unBiblical, period, end of discussion. Christ instructs us to pray only to God, and He will hear our prayers through Jesus Christ. There is one mediator between man and God. One. ONE.
So, that is about it. There’s more I could go into, but that’s enough to prove that Catholicism (which wasn’t actually establish by the apostles. The Church meaning the organized gathering of Christians (not the Catholic Church alone) was set up by the apostles.) is very, very off on a lot of extremely important things.
First, I am not a catholic and what I am about to say, would before the protestant reformation have gotten you burned at the stake. Heck! Luther said similiar things and it almost got him burned at the stake. I have said somethings that would have definately got me burned at the stake. And all of this comes to you from your friendly neighborhood catholic church. I have known Catholics who sounded much like they might be Christians, but then I have no idea of what was going on in there heart and mind either.
I wonder if you have even read the Gospels or understand them,your like the Etheopian and Phillip, you have not the understanding.
The keys, figurtively spraking, was kiven to Peter the first Pope, who anointed the successors after him, commisioned by Jesus to keep the living faith alive, as humanity grows and changes there is a very real need for the Pope(Papa)read some of his Enclicyclicals on the Vatican website, such wisdom and love.
Purgatory is a realm that is revealed by revelation and in the light of reason, in the order of our human world we sin and fail, all are sinners, everyone has sinned, yes even the Pope. The journey in life does not end and in the light of reason it is considered rational that there is a place where the soul is growing in love, purgatory, this makes sense.
Veneration of the Saints is only that, the simple thing to remember is why not pray to the living Saints for help, every one of them has something to offer you. It does not mean idolatary, but reverence and honour to those who have true faith, unlike you. Poor Soul.
“The keys, figurtively spraking, was kiven to Peter the first Pope, who anointed the successors after him, commisioned by Jesus to keep the living faith alive, as humanity grows and changes there is a very real need for the Pope(Papa)read some of his Enclicyclicals on the Vatican website, such wisdom and love.”
Show one place in the Bible where this is, and I’ll believe you. I’ve looked through many passages, and I haven’t found anywhere that Peter was the first pope. As for the pope, what need is there for him? Really? Teachers and preachers, yes. Pope, no. Show me one place in the Bible where anyone says that we need a pope, a supreme head of the church who tells us what to do and we’re supposed to believe him no matter what.
“I wonder if you have even read the Gospels or understand them,your like the Etheopian and Phillip, you have not the understanding.”
Yes, I have read the Gospels several times. The thing that is important to remember is that I’m not saying that Catholics aren’t Christians. I’m saying that the Catholic Church has major issues. The most important is the concept of earning salvation. It is simply unBiblical to say that you can earn salvation.
“It does not mean idolatary, but reverence and honour to those who have true faith, unlike you. Poor Soul.”
Hmm, what are reverance and honour? A form of worship. Think about it. We revere and honour God. To do the same to any of the saints is to put them equal to God, which is idolatry. And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t pray for our fellow Christians; that is a good and honourable thing to do. But we are not to pray TO them.
And to say that I do not have true faith is simply not true. I’m not a Catholic. I’m a Reformed Southern Baptist.
May the Lord give you His peace!
I came across your blog because I get google alerts on the Catholic Church, partly for work, partly for personal interest. As someone who has been a Christian for 7 years and a Catholic Christian for 5, I’ve heard a lot of your “End of discussion” points before. Perhaps I could explain why there’s a little more behind the biggest Christian Church in the world, the only one that can trace it’s roots to the apostles, the one responsible for compiling the Bible, and the one about which Christ promised, “the gates of hell will never prevail against it”.
Now, I’m not sure if I can use formatting in this post, and there doesn’t seem to be a preview button, so I’m going to attempt to put your comments in italics, if I don’t manage I’m sorry!
I’m going to go out on a limb here (hah) and say that this is going to be very, very controversial…
not really, the Church has been under attack since the beginning, I was reading St John’s Gospel yesterday and paused on Christ’s words (something along the lines of), “people will persecute you believing they are doing God’s work”. From the blatant lies of folk like Mr Jack Chick to campaigners within the Church for women “priests”, we are used to criticism, so was Jesus.
Not all Catholics are non-Christians. This post is simply things that I believe are wrong with the Catholic Church in general.
Well, it’s a good start. I don’t think I could define if someone were a Christian or not. I think belief in Christ as fully God is necessary, baptism is pretty important, or intention to do so. Beyond that I don’t think I could say. I would be happy to agree that you’re a Christian. Christ is the source and summit of my life, I imagine you would accept that I’m a Christian if you spoke to me… and I believe your Christian tradition has a lot missing from it, so from that point too we’re coming from the same place!
The first thing is the pope. There is no need for a pope, seriously.
Jesus didn’t seem to think so. I’m sure you’ve come across Christ’s commission to Peter: “and I say to you, you are Peter (Which means rock), and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it” (Matt 16:18). We see in the early Church, as far back as 200AD (nearly 200 years before the Church defined which books made up the Bible) that the Fathers of the Church accepted the authority of Peter as the one chosen to lead Christ’s Church. Christ did not give the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Matt 16:19) to a group of people, He gave them to one man, to Peter. The Church was the unanimous in accepting the primacy of this position would be passed on, electing a new “Bishop of Rome” whenever the position was vacant. You can read more about this here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
remember that these people quoted were the ones who agreed which of the many letters and gospels that were floating around should be compiled within a “Bible”. The Bible reflects the mind of the Church, and is certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit… because the Church is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit. There is no way these men would have understood their letters to be in contradiction to the scriptures, or that the Church would have allowed them to hold such positions of authority had their teaching contradicted the Scriptures.
Catholics (and most people in general) treat the pope as if he is some special. His very title (your holiness) treats him with an unBiblical air. I think I’m missing something here. St Peter described the Church as, “…a holy nation” (1 Peter 2:9)
The Bible is very clear. No one is righteous. Even the pope. To claim otherwise is blasphemy, period. No one is holy except God. End of discussion.
Well, whether anyone is righteous or not is another discussion, however, the title, “Your Holiness” (which I’ve not actually heard much) is not referring to the pope as a person, but to his office. The pope is a sinner, just like everyone else… of course the current Pope is completely fabulous, but no one would say he’s perfect, and we have had some pretty rubbish popes at periods in the Church’s history. I don’t know if you have this custom, but it’s my practice, when I’m reading the Gospels, to kiss the page before I close my bible. Am I worshiping the paper… or am I expressing reverence for the Word of God written on it? In the same way I love the Pope because he is the shepherd Christ has given to His people, in loving Him I love the authority of Christ. As I said, B16 is also a top bloke, so he’s easy to love, but I hope I would love him whoever he was, as I would love my Father even if he messed up.
The next thing is the whole “you can earn your salvation” junk. That, also, is unBiblical.
And also not Catholic. Archbishop Fulton Sheen (famous US Bishop) said, “there are only a handful of Americans who hate the Catholic Church, though there are millions who hate what they think the Church is.” We don’t believe you can earn your salvation, it’s a free gift from God. I’m aware I’m going on a bit so I’m not going to go into this any more.
Okay. End of discussion. Well, not really. There is also Purgatory. This is pretty much the same thing. Once you die, you go to Purgatory, where you work off your sins. Obviously, this is also unBiblical, for the same reasons (not even to mention that Purgatory isn’t ever mention in the Bible).
All about purgatory:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Something else (this is the one that kills me the most, figuratively speaking) is that Catholics pray to Mary (and the other saints). First of all this is absolutely unBiblical, period, end of discussion. Christ instructs us to pray only to God, and He will hear our prayers through Jesus Christ. There is one mediator between man and God. One. ONE.
First thing. We don’t pray to anyone but God. We ask the Saints to pray for us, like I ask my friends to pray for me. I think you’ll find that praying for each other is biblical. Thanks for the extra emphasis though, the Catholic Church is aware that there is one mediator, but this doesn’t mean Christians can’t pray for each other.
I think again, Catholic Answers can say it better than me, and I’ll leave you with this link:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
and this quote:
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
You could contact me through facebook, or http://www.xt3.com (when it launches next week), you have my full name, there aren’t many of me!
May God continue to lead you to the fullness of the truth in Him.
Mhari
I had kept this window open since yesterday and didn’t see that there had been other replies… oops!
Mark, great to see other folk defending the Faith, and I think you’re more eloquent than me, but (can’t think how to say this without sounding condescending) “…always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence“ (1 Pet 3:15). Remember you can win an argument and lose a soul.
M
Mhari: Glad to have a polite person to disagree with for once in a while!
you don’t sound as if you are a Catholic in the generic sense. what exactly do you refer to yourself as?
ok well, to address your comments.
“The first thing is the pope. There is no need for a pope, seriously.”
Jesus didn’t seem to think so. I’m sure you’ve come across Christ’s commission to Peter: “and I say to you, you are Peter (Which means rock), and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it” (Matt 16:18)”
i fail to see where exactly Jesus says “You will be the first in a long line of popes…” seems like here we can take Jesus’ words at face value: Peter will be the first pastor of the new church, and Peter will get things running (if you pardon the expression.)
“First thing. We don’t pray to anyone but God. We ask the Saints to pray for us, like I ask my friends to pray for me.”
but the Saints are in heaven, no? let me see if i remember my Catholic experiences (half of my family is Catholic) you pray with your eyes open, yes? do you say something to the effect of “Saint Mary, i ask that you ask God to…” Please, understand, i’m not being sarcastic, simply asking a question that reveals my somewhat lacking knowledge of the Catholic prayer. The Bible states that “there is only one mediator between God and Man” and this mediator is Jesus Christ. which is why there is only one person to pray to: Jesus Christ.
Hello squigs,
you don’t sound as if you are a Catholic in the generic sense. what exactly do you refer to yourself as?
In the generic sense…? I refer to myself as Catholic, 100%
I’m a Catholic of the Roman rite, this means (as I understand it) that the kind of mass I attend is in the roman tradition, there are other flavours of Catholic, all in the one Church, obedient to the Holy Father… I’m the common one! There are a fair few Catholics who don’t really understand their faith, perhaps those are the ones you’ve come across. I guess because I’m a convert to Catholicism I’ve been so impressed by the splendour of the truth I’ve spent a little time learning more about it… but I’m the same kind of Catholic as the pope is 
i fail to see where exactly Jesus says “You will be the first in a long line of popes…” seems like here we can take Jesus’ words at face value: Peter will be the first pastor of the new church, and Peter will get things running (if you pardon the expression.)
You can take it that way, I can see how people do. If you’re taking it that way then could you tell me where Christ gives His apostles the bible? Sometimes Christ doesn’t spell things out exactly for His followers. As I said, the early Christians all accepted the primacy of Peter (that he has a particular authority) and the way the early Christian Church worked was that the Christians recognised the importance of appointing a successor to Peter to be the visible leader of Christ’s Church on earth. The way we understand things is that Christ didn’t give us a book, however great that book is (and I’m not dissing the Bible here, the Church recognises that it’s vitally important), but He did give us a Church. He built that Church on a rock, and to that rock he gave “the keys to the kingdom of heaven” (this is why Peter is always depicted with keys, by the way). I actually thought of you guys today at mass, as the Gospel was Christ’s ascension, where He says, “all authority under heaven and earth has been given to you” (I can’t remember which Gospel it’s from, but it’s at the end, I guess you could find it
). Our Lord founded a living and breathing mystical body, His Church. He gave it authority to preach and teach, and He gave a special commission to one man (Peter): “feed my sheep” (three times!). There is considerable evidence (see the link in my last post) that this Church from the very beginning understood Peter (and whoever succeeded him) to have a particular role as the chief shepherd of that Church.
We see the need for such a shepherd when we look at the many groups that have split away from the Catholic Church since the reformation. When we don’t have the authority of the Bishops we don’t have the same guidance of the Holy Spirit to keep us free from error. Christ promised of His Church, “the gates of Hell will never prevail against it”, His Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. “One” and “Catholic” means that “there will be one flock and one shepherd”, that there will be unity (Catholic means “Universal” in Greek). “Apostolic” is our commitment to “Go, preach the Gospel to all nations”, and Holy… holy means that despite the sins of individuals, as the body of Christ the Church is always holy.
The oneness of the Church is clearly compromised when we lose the guidance of the shepherds, we see this because once any group leaves the Catholic Church they keep splitting and splitting. I see that leftback is a “Reformed Southern Baptist”… why that rather than an “Unreformed Southern Baptist”. I understand that there are several new protestant denominations formed every day, and each one with a different twist on the Bible, which is why Jesus gave us a Church rather than a Bible alone.
but the Saints are in heaven, no? let me see if i remember my Catholic experiences (half of my family is Catholic) you pray with your eyes open, yes? do you say something to the effect of “Saint Mary, i ask that you ask God to…” Please, understand, i’m not being sarcastic, simply asking a question that reveals my somewhat lacking knowledge of the Catholic prayer.
Sometimes I pray with my eyes open, sometimes with my eyes shut… I don’t get why that’s important really!
When I’m walking down the street closing my eyes would be a little dangerous, when I’m at mass I often do shut my eyes. I don’t tend to close my eyes when I chat with the Saints. I see talking to the Saints as kind of like when you meet someone you see is very close to God, and it’s good to talk to them and ask them to pray. The Saints I like best (St Mary Magdalene, St Clare of Assisi, St Peter…) I tend to chat to in a similar way to how I speak to my closest friends, “Oh St Clare, It would be ever so great to be a nun, but I don’t know if God is really calling me. I’m so confused about what I should do, please pray for me.”. I don’t worship them, I don’t ask them for forgiveness, I do admire them, and I do look to their lives as examples of holiness, but I also do that with folk who haven’t died yet!
A story I really like is about an artist who has an exhibition of his work. He has this very beautiful painting, and a load of people are standing around it saying how beautiful it is, what a masterpiece. The artist gets cross, “hey”, he says, “what are you looking at my painting for, I’m over here! Look at me!”. The Saints are some of God’s most beautiful masterpieces. In recognising their beauty we really recognise the beauty of God who made them.
I still don’t get your problem with mediators. If your friend asks you to pray for him, do you say, “certainly not, there is only one mediator between God and man”? The Saints are part of the Church, the mystical body of Christ, they’re in heaven, why shouldn’t they pray for us?
Going to bed now. Good night
so Peter is always depicted with keys…but do you believe that Jesus actually said “Here are the keys to heaven” and handed him actual literal keys? or that Peter actually holds literal keys now?
“I still don’t get your problem with mediators. If your friend asks you to pray for him, do you say, “certainly not, there is only one mediator between God and man”? The Saints are part of the Church, the mystical body of Christ, they’re in heaven, why shouldn’t they pray for us?”
It’s not that i have a problem, per se. It’s very fine for a friend of mine to ask me to pray for them. There is only one mediator between God and Man, not “one mediator between God and each and every man.” Besides, when someone asks us to pray for them, we still pray to God. Asking a friend and asking a Saint is quite different.
“There is only one mediator between God and Man, not “one mediator between God and each and every man.””
Allow me to clarify. What Squigs is saying here is that there is only one being who can forgive sins. Yes, I do ask my friends to pray for me, that is Biblical. However, I do not ask them to forgive my sins or to aid in forgiving my sins. I simply ask them to ask God to remember me, those kind of things. Only God, through Christ, can give forgiveness of sins, no body and no thing else.
Apologies for the delay, work has been manic!
Matthew 16: 13-19
Peter’s Confession of Christ
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Of course the kingdom of heaven doesn’t have gates with a lock that you need a set of physical keys to open, Christ gave Peter metaphorical keys, but that still has a meaning! When I said “Peter is depicted with keys” I didn’t mean, “because Catholics think that Jesus gave him a physical bunch of them”… but because we recognise that Christ gave Peter (the rock on which He built His Church) “all authority under heaven and earth”. As I said in my past post, the early Christian Church recognised that this was the case, it was recognised throughout Christianity until the reformation.
Re: asking a friend vs. asking a Saint. You say it’s different. Why? If you could clarify why it’s different perhaps I’d understand. If you met a famous Christian preacher who you didn’t know, but who you felt was pretty close to God, you wouldn’t mind asking them to pray for you, would you? So why not the Saints in heaven, “the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Rev 7:14)?
God bless,
Mhari
sorry leftback, didn’t see your comments.
The Catholic Church has never taught that Saints can forgive sins, we only pray to God for the forgiveness of our sins. We ask the Saints to intercede (pray for us), that’s all.
However, re: your statement about the authority to forgive sins. What then did Christ mean when He said,
“Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.“ (John 20:23). Note He only gave authority to do this to His disciples, not to the holy women, not to His mother.
“However, re: your statement about the authority to forgive sins. What then did Christ mean when He said,
“Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.“ (John 20:23). Note He only gave authority to do this to His disciples, not to the holy women, not to His mother.”
When Christ said this, He was speaking to the apostles, correct? Tell me, how many true apostles are there any more? I mean those who Christ called His apostles. You cannot claim that the pope is an apostle because he was not instructed by Christ Himself.
But I do not think that that’s what Christ meant when He spoke those words. I believe that Christ was saying that the Apostles would be able, through the Holy Spirit, discern who was truly forgiven, A.K.A. true Believers, and who was not. And if they [being the apostles] believed that the person in question was indeed a true believer, then had the earthly authority to publicly declare that said person a follower of Christ.
“I didn’t mean, “because Catholics think that Jesus gave him a physical bunch of them”… but because we recognise that Christ gave Peter (the rock on which He built His Church) “all authority under heaven and earth”.”
But Peter wasn’t given all authority under heaven and earth. Christ was the only one who held that authority. See Matthew 28:16-20. Christ clearly says “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me….” Christ does not say “All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Peter and I.” He says “ME.”